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Isuzu Trooper Owners Club UK™
Isuzu Trooper, Rodeo, Bighorn, Mu & VehiCROSS Owners Club
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wv6z
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008
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Location: Anderson, SC, USA
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 Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 23:51 Post subject: Google Ads keep this community free to join! |
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dxmedia
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Location: Hope Valley
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 23:57 Post subject: |
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First one, bull, second, sorry it's late here... didn't watch - fuel cell - bad bad bad idea - It's moving the issue to a coal fired power station 
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wv6z
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Location: Anderson, SC, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 0:20 Post subject: |
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Ooooooo, a coal fired power station....... now there's a nifty idea! Lemme get busy on that one! 
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Topvaux
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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Location: Dereham, Norfolk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:07 Post subject: |
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Hi wv6z
Not trying to belittle you in any way and apologies for giving you that idea. I was belittling the notion, not you for getting hooked on the HHC idea.
It's as simple as this - the energy you put IN to splitting the H2O into HHO will not be matched by the energy you get OUT when you burn the HHO again to make H2O. Otherwise, as I said, you have just invented the Perpetual Motion Machine - you could put an electrolysing plant down by the sea, make HHO and then burn that to make more electricity than you use for elecrolysis. We all know that can't happen if we think about it.
Don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but it won't work, I'm afraid. |
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dxmedia
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Joined: 04 Mar 2007
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Location: Hope Valley
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:02 Post subject: |
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an interesting quote I found on tinternet
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If you went to the old site, it tells how you can make money selling this
*beep* on commission.
People who really dont know how foolish it is are sometimes quick to take
the get rich quick bait. |
Sums up a lot - if commission is involved then there is only 1 answer, it works and there's nothing else to it..... 
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wv6z
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Anderson, SC, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:47 Post subject: |
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| Topvaux wrote: |
Hi wv6z
Not trying to belittle you in any way and apologies for giving you that idea. I was belittling the notion, not you for getting hooked on the HHC idea.
It's as simple as this - the energy you put IN to splitting the H2O into HHO will not be matched by the energy you get OUT when you burn the HHO again to make H2O. Otherwise, as I said, you have just invented the Perpetual Motion Machine - you could put an electrolysing plant down by the sea, make HHO and then burn that to make more electricity than you use for elecrolysis. We all know that can't happen if we think about it.
Don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but it won't work, I'm afraid. |
Understood and agreed, the idea of a hybrid, as I see it in other applications, is quite lame. My thinking was as the Trooper must be running and it's alternator will be in operation for all of the other systems, in theory it seemed no less efficient than the other hybrid attempts we see today. Now, if I had to run the truck just for the sake of running the HHO generator, then it would be very wasteful indeed. However, as the truck obviously has to run to perform its functions anyway, my query was based solely upon whether anyone has tried to improve their mileage. No, if the materials for the production of electrolyte were more than basic distilled water with 'household' additives, or, if I had to recharge batteries or some other such nonsense to run the HHO generator, I would have never given it another though. So, as the energy being put IN to produce the HHO is energy that is already available, you're comparing apples and oranges. The dreams of a perpetual motion machine are just that, dreams, but not MY dreams.
As dxmedia has pointed out, as well as yourself, there is no doubt it will not work. Would be nice if it would have though and would beat the hell out of having an LP tank in the boot if it would have worked as described and that is production for immediate consumption, not storage.
Enthusiasm? No, not likey, after being on this rock adrift in space for nearly 50 years, it would take being stranded on a desert island with two 18 year old nymphomaniacs to bother with enthusiasm.
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wv6z
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Anderson, SC, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:51 Post subject: |
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| dxmedia wrote: |
an interesting quote I found on tinternet
| Quote: |
If you went to the old site, it tells how you can make money selling this
*beep* on commission.
People who really dont know how foolish it is are sometimes quick to take
the get rich quick bait. |
Sums up a lot - if commission is involved then there is only 1 answer, it works and there's nothing else to it..... |
Here, as I am sure it is back home, 'beer' is sold on commission..... you seem to have it stuck in the old grey matter that I have or that I plan to buy something....... why is that? Are you afraid that I am trying to sell you something m8?
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dxmedia
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Location: Hope Valley
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:00 Post subject: |
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Didn't say you were - but a lot of the sites promoting the miricle wonder cure are...
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Topvaux
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 934
Location: Dereham, Norfolk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:41 Post subject: |
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| wv6z wrote: |
| So, as the energy being put IN to produce the HHO is energy that is already available, you're comparing apples and oranges |
Ah, but that's a common mistake, to assume that since the engine is running anyway, so the alternator is running anyway, then the energy is "free". Well, not so, actually - as the demand from the alternator increases so the load on the engine increases and the fuel consumption increases and, as is always the sad truth, the energy required to drive the alternator is more than the energy derived from it. (Try idling the engine with all electrics turned off and then turn on all the heavy-demand items like main-beam headlamps and heated rear screen - you can hear it taking up the load).
So, the energy used in the process isn't "free" at all.
Actually, in my humble opinion there is some sense in the principle of hybrids if you're only looking at fuel consumption per se. An IC engine is at its most efficient at one specific engine speed and at full load, so if you run it only at that speed and load you can maximise its efficiency. So, you run at a fixed speed and drive an alternator to keep traction batteries charged or you turn it off. Then, whenever you apply the brakes you convert a lot of kinetic energy into heat. That kinetic energy cost you fuel in the first place, but if you do most of the braking by powering alternators to recharge your traction batteries then you can reclaim at least a fair proportion of that energy for re-use.
The trouble with hybrids at the moment is that if we are concerned with the carbon problem then the carbon released in the production of these things pretty much outweighs their savings in service - especially when it comes to replacing the traction batteries when they wear out. I'm sure our kids or their kids will find the answer though......
It is SUCH a shame that hydrogen is such a difficult fuel to handle because otherwise it's beautiful.
Shell are doing a fair bit of work on hydrogen fuel for vehicles along with Honda (and Daimler I think) and they have a hydrogen generation plant in Iceland. The advantage Iceland has is a pretty-well unlimited source of geo-thermal energy and huge potential in hydro-electric as well. (Iceland is now the biggest smelter of aluminium in the world because the energy is virtually free and it's a very high-energy process). The Icelanders are reckoning they could produce a huge quantity of hydrogen and supply the World if only the storing and handling problems could be satisfactorily resolved. Digressing even further - Iceland is looking to lay sub-ocean cables to supply huge quantities of cheaply, greenly generated electricity to mainland Europe. They've come a long way since the Cod Wars!! |
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dxmedia
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Location: Hope Valley
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:46 Post subject: |
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Don't make the mistake of calling hydrogen a fuel, it's not - it's a storage medium.
The problem with commercially creating hydrogen is the huge amount of energy required, if you use coal or oil or gas... to create this energy then all that's happeneing is the point of pollution is being shifted.
I'm a firm beliver in technology like the teslar electric car, if the means of production of energy is clean (read nuclear) then the car itself is very very tempting.
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dxmedia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:51 Post subject: |
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Sorry - above I mean comercailly on a global scale...
Iceland is very good for production for an area, but as soon as you transport it 20000 miles by sea...
Oh water vapour is a worse greenhouse gas than C02 BTW
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Topvaux
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 934
Location: Dereham, Norfolk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 14:23 Post subject: |
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| dxmedia wrote: |
1/ Don't make the mistake of calling hydrogen a fuel, it's not - it's a storage medium.
2/ Iceland is very good for production for an area, but as soon as you transport it 20000 miles by sea...
3/ Oh water vapour is a worse greenhouse gas than C02 BTW |
1/ A tad esoteric, that! I would contend that it is a fuel, but it happens to be a fuel into which a lot of energy has already been invested. To a greater or lesser degree that can be said of other fuels, too, can't it?
2/ I guess it wouldn't be so bad if the ship was powered by some of its cargo? Nothing to stop you sailing the ship if you like.....
3/ Pass the vapour through a condenser......
We've pretty well got to where we are after about a century of staggering growth in industrialisation and transport using mainly ludicrously inefficient Internal Combustion engines and fossil fuels. I'd love to have a window on the world in another 100 years and see what solutions our grandchildren come up with. I'm sure they will, though, and probably using technologies we haven't even dreamed of. |
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dxmedia
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Location: Hope Valley
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 14:30 Post subject: |
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You put energy in to realease the hydrogen - hence it being a storage medium.
Oil is the energy if you see the difference (I'm not talking energy for mining, such as pumping oil, or collecting water), it's one of the reasons why hydrogen not a great idea, you need to release energy twice - once in the creation, again when your burning hydrogen, suddenly it's not as green as it started.
Unfortunatly the media is on the 'oooo only water as an output - it's the greenest fuel there is' bandwagon at the moment, and the government is run by idiots (the same ones who are forcing corn oil for bio fuels - it takes 4 times more fuel to create than released with corn it's that bad), so we're stuck with the proposed new coal fired power station down south.... and the proposed wind farm oop north having it's planning rejected.
As you say though - 100 years time, going to be interesting. Energy consumption isn't the issue, it's the means of production.
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wv6z
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Anderson, SC, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 0:04 Post subject: |
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I just keep coming back like bad luggage or herpes. 
I couldn't resist taking what I had and throwing the water to it this morning before bed. Nothing high tech, just a quart of water and 1/8 tsp of sodium hydroxide. Didn't feel like lugging one of the larger power supplies out so I powered it with a 13v 3amp regulated power supply. These was the outcome. After completing the assembly of the generator cell, I need to make a bubbler (isolator), pick up a relay and a switch and see what I can do. During upcoming tests, I will check for amperage load under increasing water temperature and check for volume of HHO produced. Anyway, I thought the 'sizzle' and rather busy reaction looked interesting, if not promising........... 3 amps gentlemen......... count 'em....... THREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozeb_oePko
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dxmedia
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Joined: 04 Mar 2007
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Location: Hope Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:42 Post subject: |
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Try putting baking soda in, you'll get loads of bubbles too...
it's snake oil.
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