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Hydrogen-on-demand.

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rairb1
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Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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Location: Irvine, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 15:41    Post subject: Hydrogen-on-demand. Reply with quote

Anyone running their Troopers on Hydrogen?

A friend of a friend is running his Discovery on Hydrogen on demand, depending on how he drives it he says he can get very good mpg or he can get the foot down and it will go like a rocket, I think I would prefer most of the time increased mpg although it would be nice every now and again to have a bit of increased power.

Scott
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itocuk
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been discussed a few times before Scott - the theory is great, the reality is - you use more energy creating the hydrogen that you get in the negligible improvements from using it Rolling Eyes

Simon
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Topvaux
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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Location: Dereham, Norfolk

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon beat me to it!

It CANNOT work.

If you think about it, it can't make sense, otherwise you have invented to first perpetual motion machine.

To get the hydrogen you have to split it out of water by electrolysis - therefore you need the electrical energy to put in. So, you have a generator to make the electricity and that is powered by a motor and the motor is powered by the hydrogen you are making - yes? Once you have set it up you would expect it to keep running "for ever"?

You know and I know that that wouldn't happen! Apart from anything else there are too many inefficiencies in the equation: the motor will be making heat, the generator will be making heat, which all represent lost energy.

And then, if you look at the physics - it takes more energy PUT IN to electrolyse the water than the amount of energy that you GET OUT of the hydrogen fuel.

If the principle was going to work you would have to be able to design a system which delivered MORE energy than it consumed.

Sorry - it's a scam like snake oil! The people who use it and swear by it are deluding themselves - it's the placebo effect.
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Pirate
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 13:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should have a deeper look into the principal, you are not replacing the base fuel you are adding a gas which changes the way your base fuel burns.
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Topvaux
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 14:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH BLIMEY! NOT THAT AGAIN.......  Shocked   Evil or Very Mad

So, it's a catalyst, then, is it?  Rolling Eyes

I don't think so, but somebody will know.......... Cool

Contrary to this arrogant exterior I am quite prepared to be proven wrong (only I'm not actually making any preparations, as such.........  hilarious hilarious)
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Pirate
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 15:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best change your mind quick  because this is the future, not maybe the the browns gas but hybred hydrogen to be able to burn lower grade fuels and not lose performance.Best tell me what you know about hydrogen as a fuel and then I will tell you what you dont know!!! Wink
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Topvaux
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 16:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'm listening.

Can you point me to a paper/article that describes the principal?
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markymoan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 17:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should this be filed in the same place as the Turbonator  Laughing
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Topvaux
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 18:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

markymoan wrote:
Should this be filed in the same place as the Turbonator  Laughing


Yes, Marky, I'm afraid so. The Turbonator came from LaLaLand Technologies Incredible and I suspect this concept came from the same stable. Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes
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Hard1
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 18:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Topvaux wrote:
markymoan wrote:
Should this be filed in the same place as the Turbonator  Laughing


Yes, Marky, I'm afraid so. The Turbonator came from LaLaLand Technologies Incredible and I suspect this concept came from the same stable. Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes


Whaaaat? I have had a Turbonator on my truck for a year now and it's fantastic! I was only doing 22 mpg before I fitted it - now I get 18! How about that you doubting Thomas's. It was the best £250 I ever spent.

I tell a lie, I bought a Half Cocked Junction Rig from eebuygum a month ago and fitted it to the Downstream Plasma Manifold - only took a day or so (you've got to be careful of that matter/anti-matter stuff Jim) but it's a bit early to judge whether it has improved my Slipstream Drive, let alone my Warp capacity..

Will keep you informed..  Very Happy
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Mike_S
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 23:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pirate wrote:
Best change your mind quick  because this is the future, not maybe the the browns gas but hybred hydrogen to be able to burn lower grade fuels and not lose performance.Best tell me what you know about hydrogen as a fuel and then I will tell you what you dont know!!! Wink


What you need to remember in your enthusiasm for hydrogen is that there is a world of difference between using small quantities of hydrogen produced external to your vehicle as a supplement to enable you to utilise a low grade fuel that would otherwise be difficult or impossible to ignite in a standard engine, and trying to produce the hydrogen on-board, on the fly, utilising energy from the same engine you are trying to run on the hydrogen.

The first adds energy to the system from an external source and works, the  second is a perpetual motion machine and doesn't.

I agree that hydrogen has great potential as a future fuel, but my opinion is that we will much more likely see it being used in fuel cells to produce electricity for electric powered cars than burnt in inefficient internal combustion engines. Apparently major manufacturers agree with me, as several of them already have cars/trucks/buses using this technology released as production models and in use by customers, but hey, what do they know about it? - it's not as if any of them bother spending money on research before introducing a new power train.

Oh, and should you really be keen to play with hydrogen as a fuel supplement in your engine, remember this essential equation: heat + hydrogen = embrittlement of metals.
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russtik2
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 19:20    Post subject: ACTUALLY you are all WRONG! Reply with quote

well apart from the laws of physics determining energy in/out etc!

their have been vehicles using hydrogen enriched fuel gas since 1900 ish and a million vehicles across europe, uk included during the second world war!

wood gas, or producer gas, coal gas,  all much the same thing,

ever seen a flame appear in the smoke from an open fire, usualy when lighting it? thats flammable gasses released during incomplete combustion.

before we got natural / north sea gas, all the gas in the uk was producer gas (cooked from coal)
basically heat up hydro carbons withought enough oxygen and you create carbon monoxide and hydrogen, which are flammable. think charcoal burner with enough air to keep it really hot but not enough to let the fire spread, the adjacent charcoal is super heated.   for more info
google Källe-gasifier their is a translation of his design, it has a blue background and black text, excellent reading!
you can increase efficiency by injecting small amounts of steam which in the presence of carbon produce more CO and H.

for us veg oil enthusiasts it gets even better!
you can use the gassifier design in the link with a turbo diesel egine WITHOUT modifications, a true self regulating dual fuel!, the turbo- air intake controls the air flow for the gassifier, the gas produced is fed in to the engine via the normal air intake,  the governor on the diesel will reduce diesel fuel intake until it is just enough to ensure ignition (gas wont ignite withought spark or diesel)  if you run out of charcoal, you will start using diesel again. it can reduce diesel use down to 20%!

so it used to be said that this was not a turnkey technology With lighting the charcoal etc, i believe that by modifying the design a bit, you could ensure the charcoal chamber was closed air tight, when the ignition is switched off, stopping the rest of the fuel from burning and putting the charcoal out. and ignition could be started with a glow plug or two, which are certainly hot enough to ignite charcoal, so you could get in and go on diesel, and if there is charcoal in it, the gas would kick in as it gets lit and going.

true charcoal is a huge waste of energy compared to wood, but wood is already carbon neutral and charcoal is lighter and more convenient.


i hope to be doing this to my trooper eventually, but i have a generator at my workshop that is running of a 1.8 mondeo td engine, so i was planning to do that one first, as it can be a larger clumsier project, as its all stationary. and what i learn from doing that will help make the smaller car based model a lot easier.

hopefully ive got a few minds buzzing!
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Wirdy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 21:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this post exactly 5 months early? Razz
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bigtrooper
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Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 13:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone actualy know how it works and why it works?

Seems to be alot of confusion....... Shocked
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DYLAN
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 15:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little read Wink

Hydrogen economy

If it was an inexpensive option there would be companies all over dying to convert your car and a google search didn't bring one up Wink
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