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3.0L Trooper wont start Tech 2 says no RPM??

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SupaTrupa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:13    Post subject: 3.0L Trooper wont start Tech 2 says no RPM?? Reply with quote

Hello to all Isuzu supporters, I'm new to the forum and firstly just want to say this website is the best site to be on if you want to know more about Isuzu's 4x4's. I love this site and the people who offer there advice/opinions here.

Ok, my story at the current time is about a troublesome 3.0L trooper 2001 SWB and I hope someone can shine some light on the fix for this, all help or suggestions appreciated. We have had this Trooper for a few years and have unfortunately went through a few engines. First we changed from 3.0L to 3.1 as the 3.0L engine gave up and we had a so called old reliable 3.1 engine as a spare so we converted the 3.0L trooper to 3.1 hoping we wouldn't ever have much trouble with it Unfortunately we had trouble with it also. Couldn't pinpoint the actual problem but checked everything we could to the best of our knowledge.

Anyway were after now replacing the 3.1 engine with another 3.0L engine as we miss the towing power of the 3.0L and I think it runs better with the gear ratios in the gearbox. 3.1 engine with 3.0L gearbox seems to drive slugish and needs high revs.
Now with 3.0L engine fitted loom all pluged in it wont start.

Have done the following; 1. Transfered modified flywheel of 3.1 engine to 3.0L engine, 2. Timed it with half moon cut out at 6 o clock and crank shaft pulley timing mark at 12 o clock. 3. Tightened flywheel with 2 studs only just in case we had to adjust it again. 4. Left gearbox off for easy access to flywheel if needed. 5. plugged in all plugs on the loom. 6. connected oil pipes. 7. left the alternator off along with water pipes and air intake pipes and vaccuum hoses. 8. tried starting the engine but it just kept cranking no attempt to fire. 9. tried easy start while cranking still no attempt to fire. 10. replaced ORPS with a known good one with no difference. 11. replaced crank postiton sensor still no difference. 12. replaced cam position sensor no difference these were all second hand parts but supposed to be good. 13. changed flywheel the 8 possible ways it could go on one turn at a time in one direction while keeping crank pulley at TDC every time still no difference. 14. Tried Flash code by manualy jumping the diagnostic plug terminals 4 and 6 and no flash codes were displayed, CHECK ENGINE light is working. 15. Have done some other tests and checks but dont want to make this one post any longer. Any thoughts on this so far much appreciated. Any thoughts as why it wont start or fire??
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Gribble
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the 3.0 timing ring is on the 3.1 flywheel ? Then it maybe that the crank sensors out of range which is why the T2 is not showing any rpm count.
It needs the distance from the sensor face to the timing ring measuring,not sure what it's meant to be but bet it's the same as the cam sensors distance.
Also the crank pulley mark needs to be on 12 with #1 firing ,valves closed when timing up.
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SupaTrupa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 14:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Gribble I'm glad to have you the first person on board this subject as I've read a lot of your posts before and you seem to have a lot of knowledge along with eithan h and a few others on these 4x4s.

I am not a mechanic but I have a reasonable amount of knowledge in working with these troopers over the years. My father owns these Troopers but I try my best to help him to try keep the show on the road. There are some parts I still don't know much about and the timing ring is one of them. I believe it's the toothed part on the flywheel which sort of looks like a V belt (fan belt) turned inside out and only it's made of steel instead. Am I right??

I think that has to be it as the half moon notch is on the same area and its part of the timing. I'm being told the flywheel is originaly of a 3.0L TROOPER and I'm told it's the 3.0L timing ring on it. The way it's modified is supposed to be just bolted together.

We did change the crank sensor for a known good one which came out of an engine that was supposed to be running ok and it made no difference. we even gave both of them a little clean of a wire brush beforehand. As for the crank pulley being on 12 with #1 firing valves closed I'm not sure we had #1 firing. Were not really sure how to know when #1 is firing when looking at the cams.

Continuing on from my first post and adding in some bits I forgot to mention. When it first didn't start I noticed neither of us had actually checked it for engine oil. Thought Dad would have done that in the beginning but under pressure he forgets some things and the pressure rubs of on me. So I checked it for oil and no oil. I put 5 litres of 5 w 30 fully synthetic in it and still no difference in starting.
We checked to see was diesel coming by opening a 17 nut somewhere near the hand primer on filter and tthere was diesel coming strong. We checked fuses and some relay all seemed ok. We checked our plugs on the loom all seems ok. Dad checked EGR valve not sure if he done that properly but he thinks it's ok. Starter seems to be swinging fast enough every time. We tested loom plugs to injectors to see if there was power and with the test light bulb we found no power but not sure if there is meant to be power there. He thought it's very strange it does'nt even fire on easy start.

We then called for an Isuzu experienced mechanic and he had a Tech 2. He said it's timed right and mentioned what you said Gribble about the #1 cylinder firing. He said the ORPS is not the best but good enough to start it. He said there is no RPM. He said the injectors are good but can't do a pulse test until he gets RPM. There is no oil splashing up around the cam shafts which would destroy the place with no rocker cover on.

He said there is power coming to the ECU. He asked about the loom of the 3.0L engine which we took off before fitting engine as we already had our own loom in the engine bay of our 4x4 and thought it would be easier to use our own loom instead of the one which came on the engine. He said we shouldn't have took it off and it would be easier to leave it on the engine and use it instead. He tihinks the valves may be sticking and it might start with a tow. He said prob best to change loom and cant do any more for us until we get RPM. Sorry for the long post it's a lot to take in. I would just like to be sure that we are on the right track and not waisting more time or overlooking something. Not sure if I can have full faith in the mechanic with Tech 2 either, would like a second opinion. Any suggestions??
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Gribble
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 15:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the tech 2 is not seeing crank rpm then neither is the Ecu so it won't enable the injectors so the engine won't start.
Your next step is to check the wires from the crank sensor are running up to the Ecu if  time allows I will post up the testing method with a multimeter.

Number 1 is on firing stroke when the cam lobes are point up and away from the buckets in the head.
On number four both lobes will be pushing the buckets down.

I've not heard of a pulse test maybe he meant the click test ?
That test is done without the engine running.
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eithan h
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 20:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

the timing ring is on the back of the flywheel is it there?
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SupaTrupa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 20:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be greatfull if you can post up the testing method. He did a click test with engine off and said all were ok I could here them clicking also. He said pulsing was the way he described the sound of oil being pumped through the injectors and that we should hear it and it should be throwing up oil around the top of the engine.

We already have the engine lifted back out and loom stripped off it and ready to swap it for the loom that came with the engine. While I was stripping the loom off I noticed an earth strap I think it was with two round washer type terminals which we had bolted to the block of the engine and it was loose. It's located behind the starter( hard to see ) on passenger side and it has a battery lead on the other end which I think goes to the drivers side battery ( positive lead ). We think this may have caused the problem. Could this be the problem??

Have to go now and swap the loom as the boss wants to keep moving as were using a friends shed and lift. Thanks for your help with this Gribble, will also check #1 is positioned the way you stated and see where the timing marks are.
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SupaTrupa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 20:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey eithan the flywheel and timing ring is all belonging to a 3.0L engine I only found out it was only modified as the floating flywheel went and the only modification was that it was bolted together some people weld them either I believe. Just found that out. In a hurry now Dad wants me to go with him. Thanks for joining the topic would really appreciate your help with this also.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 20:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

the click test is good as long as they all clicked 5 times, you won't hear any oil being pulsed round with the engine cranking so i'm not sure what he was on about there. yes the ring terminals by the starter are an earth lead so they won't go to any positive terminal or you will melt the lead!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 20:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok thats fine as long as that timing ring is still bolted to the back of the flywheel, also there should be a ring with all the bolt holes in it for the flywheel make sure that is located under the flywheel bolts and not in between the crank and flywheel (i've seen it done!)
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SupaTrupa
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 0:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please forgive me for being silly, I hate rushing!! I cant believe I just said that! I know very well you can't put a positive to an earth or there be sparks and maybe fuse burn outs or worse! Silly me! Think I got mixed up with another earth strap only it had a red rubber protector on the battery post clamp and got mixed up when writing the post.

The earth strap behind the starter actually was part of the loom which has the crank shaft sensor plug on it and at the other end the 3 big plugs which plug in to 3 sockets up beside the ECU. Im sure this could make a big difference but won't know till we try starting it again. As for the pulse test I don't know what he meant either then. I tried asking questions as he was doing tests but don't think he was keen on giving answers much especially as it's Dads 4x4 and I'm only a young lad Smile. He did a click test but I don't know if they clicked 5 times. All he really said was we need to get RPM signal and to change the loom for the one that came with engine as he said the timing is right and we already changed crank sensor. He did say the injectors were good but not opening. He mentioned a few other things which are posted below.

As for the timing ring Dad has told me everything is of a 3.0L but I just have to take his word for it. Is there a picture of the timing ring anywhere on here so I can be sure of what it is??

I presume it's the toothed ring that the starter motor turns which also has the half moon notch for timing? Also the ring which has the holes in it for the bolts or studs is in the right place I think. It's like a washer only it is one big single washer which the 8 bolts slide through. We have that between the head of the 8 bolts and the flywheel. When I say the head I mean the part the socket or spanner goes onto. It's still visible as we only have the flywheel bolted to the engine we dont have pressure plate or anything else on till we get it to start. I'm sure there has been all sorts of silly mistakes made but when it comes to these but it will be hard to beat my positive and negative joinery!!!

To keep things up to date we now have the loom swapped over for the loom which came with the engine and now have the engine back in resting on it's mountings. Going down again tomorrow to shed to join up most things and hopefully see if earth strap or wiring loom has made a difference. I'm curious why I couldn't get a flash code and tech 2 got no RPM. but is ther some things that won't show on flash code??
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Gribble
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some things won't show as a fault code normally when the value is variable like the injector oil pressure or the crank/cam sensor count .

Try pulling the plug off the cam sensor and see if you can get DTC 41 up when cranking ,this will show that the 5 volt signal  and earth is present at the crank sensor or it would show a code .

You must check the distance from the tip of the crank sensor to the timing ring on the back of the flywheel as if its too big the sensor won't work so no rpm count .

I have one with exactly the same fault at the moment no rpm count so the sensors getting changed today ,will stick some pics if if the customers ok with it .

If you have two batteries then there should be two earths , one as eithan had posted and the other from above the alternator by the lifting eye  to the drivers side battery .
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Gribble
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a free on line manual on here  which will help you , somebody will put the link to it up I'm sure . Smile
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SupaTrupa
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 18:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies for not getting much time to post any sooner. Have ECU, fuel, oil pipes and electric plugs all connected back up apart from the gearbox ones, tried to start and nothing just keeps cranking. Took ECU out and put it into another trooper which was running on the spot and it started that trooper no problem. Took ECU back to our trooper plugged back in. I then tried  what you said Gribble plugging out the cam sensor plug and jumped terminals 4 and 6 on Diagnostic plug and instead of getting Flash code 41 I got code 43 and have looked it up and its either crank position sensor out of syncro on / or crank position sensor no signal on. I actualy forgot to crank the engine to check the cam sensor plug DTC but with ignition on thats the only code showing up.

Cant understand why I got no code before when I checked it and why the mechanic with tech 2 never mentioned it either. Dad says the last 3.0L engine in the trooper just stopped on him and couldn't restart it and he thinks that it's the same problem were having with this ebgine only we don't know yet whats causing it. We are going to change the crank sensor again for a didffernt one and see what happens. As you said Gribble if I plug the CAM sensor plug out and crank the engine over and check for code it will tell the me if there is power / signal at the  CRANK sensor plug. Is this correct?

Dad thinks there must be some other problem with wiring or fuses or relays and he is wondering if the ignition switch could cause this proiblem? We have checked all fuses at footwell and beside battery. We also checked relays by swapping them over to the trooper that was running apart from the ones in at the footwell. So am I right about the signal test for CRANK sensor plug Gribble? or does that just test signal to cam sensor plug? How do I check the distance between the crank sensor and the timing ring on flywheel?? Hope you get yours sorted Gribble and hope its something simple that can fix mine too Smile
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eithan h
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 19:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

the timing ring isn't the teeth the starter motor engage in to, if you look at the face of the flywheel that goes against the crankshaft it's bolted to the outer edge of that face it's a toothed ring with a gap at in the teeth at one point
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Gribble
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 23:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh not good. My customer is away and  running ok . There is no code for crank position sensor out of sync  only for cam  sensor .

If the Cam  ,and  I say Cam to you not Crank sensor puts up a DTC it means the ECU is reading faults in the system so its going to read the Crank sensor if its not in the loom  and put a DTC up .

Now if you are  getting a 43 code then .
Circuit Description
The CKP reference signal is produced by the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor. During one crankshaft revolution, CKP crankshaft reference pulses will be produced. The Engine Control Module ECM uses the CKP reference signal to calculate engine RPM and crankshaft position. If the ECM does not receive pulses on the CKP reference circuit, DTC P0337 will set.
Action Taken When the DTC Sets
D The ECM will store conditions which were present when the DTC was set as Freeze Frame and in the Failure Records data.
Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC
D DTCP0337canbeclearedbyusingtheTech2“Clear Info” function or by disconnecting the ECM battery feed.
Diagnostic Aids
An intermittent may be caused by a poor connection, rubbed-through wire insulation or a wire broken inside the insulation. Check for:
D Poor connection – Inspect the ECM harness and
connectors for improper mating, broken locks, improperly formed or damaged terminals, and poor terminal-to-wire connection.
D Damaged harness – Inspect the wiring harness for damage. If the harness appears to be OK, disconnect the ECM, turn the ignition on and observe a voltmeter connected to the CKP reference circuit at the ECM harness connector while moving connectors and wiring harnesses related to the ICM. A change in voltage will indicate the location of the fault.
Reviewing the Failure Records vehicle mileage since the diagnostic test last failed may help determine how often the condition that caused the DTC to be set occurs. This may assist in diagnosing the condition.

Its looking like a timing ring issue
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