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Rhanager, Grandad, Trooper Dan


 
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Clive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 318
Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 18:51    Post subject: Rhanager, Grandad, Trooper Dan Reply with quote

Hi Rhanager, Grandad, Trooper Dan, in fact anyone on the forum I don’t mind who.

Can someone sort me out please, Yes it’s shift on the fly again, I know Rhanager has done an in depth write up about it, but I don’t think it covers the issue I’ve got with mine.

Here’s the situation, when the button is pressed on the dash to select 4wd it just keeps flashing, below is what I’ve done so far.

1/   Jacked the front of the car up.

2/   With the engine running and of course the gear lever in neutral, I pulled each rubber tube in turn off the front actuator and felt for suction, I even got a square piece of toilet paper (not used) Laughing  and put it on the end of each pipe and sure enough it held, see my attached sketch.

3/   With the 4wd button pressed in and the light continuing to flash, I stood one side of the car and turned the road wheel by hand and the wheel on the opposite side rotated in the opposite direction to the one I was turning.
It didn’t turn in the same direction if that means anything, Question, should it turn in the same direction??
 
4/   Still with button pressed in and the light still flashing, I got someone to try and prevent the road wheel from turning while I turned the other one by hand, verdict they could not stop their side from turning.  But the light still continues to flash.
Does anyone know what’s going on??

5/  When the 4wd button is NOT pressed in, the front wheels can be turned independently of each other ie its in 2wd.

Whilst on the subject of this, I removed two metal clips which I thought would be obvious where they go on reassembly, guess what I can’t remember, I’ve included some pictures of them.
Does anyone have any idea where and how they fit, a picture or sketch would be much appreciated??

I’ve also included some photos of various switches.
Does anyone know what they do??
They are all on the same side of the car, the first switch nearest the bell housing I think is the reversing light switch, the next one along I think is to do with the sotf and the one shown in the photo and marked as D, I haven’t a clue??

My thanks to anyone who can tell me what I need to do in order to resolve the above puzzles.

Clive



https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/Suction.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/Back-View.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/Plugs-2.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/Plugs-3.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/P1250935.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/Plugs.md.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 18:51    Post subject: Google Ads keep this community free to join!


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Clive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 318
Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 21:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about the first photo not working.
It should be this:

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/08/Suction.md.jpg
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Bubble-07
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 15:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've put a link on the ITOCUK facebook page to alert the guys to your question. I'm sure one of them will get back to you.
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Rhanagar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 15:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per my pm

Answers in order Very Happy

The pipes are sucking correctly on the actuator for the various 2wd/4wd modes.

"A" is the speed sensor that feeds the speedometer, "C" is the electric motor actuator that engages the front prop when you select 4wd. "B" is the connector for "C"

Unsure what the blue and brown connectors are. What engine gearbox is fitted to the vehicle?

"D" is definitely the 4wd rear actuator position switch that lets the 4wd ecu know if "C" is in the right position or not.

Hope this helps.
_________________
1990 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.I 2.8TD Manual Lotus Edition
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto Lotus Edition

Deceased
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto LS

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scj103
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 16:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are little metal C clips they come off the electrical connectors on the solenoids.

When 4x4 is engaged, front wheels should spin in opposite directions.
When disengaged they should spin independently.

From what you have posted, I would say that 4x4 is engaging correctly, and disengaging, but the axle switches (that your clips may be off) have faulty wiring.
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'98S reg Irish Trooper 3.0DT Citation (LWB 7seat)
65 plate Octavia Scout
'83 A reg 2CV...
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Clive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 318
Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 23:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fellas

Thanks to all of you for getting back to me, I’m trying to get the truck back on all fours before the bad weather sets in as I’m having to do the work outside.

Bubble -07, I don’t have a Facebook account so thank you for posting a link on there for me.
Does everyone use Facebook more than the Trooper Forum these days  Question


Rhanagar
Thanks for letting me know what the various plugs are for and confirming the pipes are sucking as they should do.

If all is correct then I can’t for the life of me understand why the darn light continues to flash on the dash clearly something must be wrong, have you any ideas what I could try next  Question  Question

I’ve been trying to understand the wiring diagrams in the manual not that I’m into electronics.
It’s one thing looking at schematic wiring diagrams on paper but trying to recognise the parts themselves on the truck is a completely different ball game.
An example the 4WD Control Unit shown on page 4B1-19 and 4B1-20, I haven’t got a clue where it lives on the truck or what it looks like, not that I’m saying that’s the cause of my problem.

Where do I start testing from  Question  
With regards to the question you asked me in your PM, I’ve got a year 2000  3.0TD with a manual gearbox.  

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/15/Wiring-1.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/15/Wiring-2.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/15/Wiring-3.md.jpg


Scj103
Thank you for confirming that the wheels do, spin in opposite directions when in the 4WD mode, I guess I was expecting them turn in the same direction as each other  Question .

Scj103
No they aren’t C clips and they aren’t off the axle switches as I haven’t removed them because the pipes are sucking ok.
The pipes were discounted from the actuator when I tested for suction.  

I’m almost sure I took the clips off the two plugs which are visible once the metal gear lever cover has been removed inside the truck.
Have a look at the picture below they are like pieces of wire bent into a U shape, Iv'e also arrowed the two plugs I think they came off or if they are some means of holding the plugs on the lugs which I have ringed in red, I know one thing it will teach me to do a sketch in future.
It’s probably not the end of the world if they don’t go back on, but if possible I try not to have a box of bits left over after doing a job if you get my drift  Laughing

https://www.freephotoupload.com/image/kuqZR

https://www.freephotoupload.com/image/ku6Qi



So at the end of the day fellas I’ve still got a light which keeps flashing, I’ve been trying to understand the schematic wiring diagrams, namely Drive Line Control System (Shift On The Fly) page 4B1-14,  4B1-19 and 4B-20 as already mentioned it’s got to be a wiring issue of some sort.
Only trouble is how the heck do I go about finding the fault, where do I start from and what am I looking for, don't you just hate it when it's nearly a fault or an intermittent one  Question  Question  Question    

If any of you guys have any ideas then please don’t hesitate to share them with me as I am desperately trying to get the problem fixed.
I don’t want to end up in that scenario Rhanagar wrote of in his sticky on SOTF and I don’t have a nice warm garage he referred to Laughing .


My thanks once again fellas for your time in replying to me

Clive
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scj103
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clive,

Those are exactly the clips I was expecting you to show, and I call them loosely C clips.
To my knowledge they don’t exist on the 4x4 system anywhere  it on the connectors on the front axle.
It’s slightly harder for me to show you a picture of where they fit if you don’t have a Facebook account, as I do everything mobile without  a hosting facility. I’ll see what I can do.

Basically it sounds like the 4x4 system is physically working as it should, but the wiring isn’t reporting that. Either one of those pairs to the front axle is damaged, or the switch isn’t stitching.
First port of call is to test the open and closed circuit nature of the switch in the actuator.
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'98S reg Irish Trooper 3.0DT Citation (LWB 7seat)
65 plate Octavia Scout
'83 A reg 2CV...
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Clive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 318
Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 18:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say scj103 is thank heaven you know what you’re talking about, I’ve had a look at the front actuator switches and yes sure enough I manage to find out how the C wires fit.
The reason I couldn’t remember is one of two things, old age or the fact the car has been on axle stands that long I’ve had time to forget where they even fitted, I’d like to think it’s later Laughing
Iv'e included a couple of pictures you never know someone else out there may have also forgotten where they fit but are too shy to ask  Laughing

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/16/Fixing-Wire-1.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/16/Fixing-Wire-2.md.jpg


I did mention in a previous post that I’d had the car jacked up all round and started it up and stuck it into gear and pressed the button on the dash to select 4wd drive and got a delightful grinding noised not un-similar to a gearbox crashing, needless to say I quickly pressed the button again to take it out of 4wd, I’m not sure if that is something I should be worrying about as I don’t normally drive the car jacked up (you don’t get a very good mileage return if you do) Laughing and yet it worked fine when the road wheel was turned by hand  Question  

Right back to testing for open or closed circuits on the actuator switches, I’ve included some pictures, you will see there are two wires to each socket namely one black/yellow to each socket and an all black wire to each socket.

I know how to test a household light switch for continuity ie the switch is not connected to any wiring, set a multimeter to continuity buzzer and it should sound when the switch rocker is in one position and no sound when the rocker is pressed into a different position, unless the switch is shot.

If the switch is connected to a live supply I can also check for live voltage (230v).
Obviously the one side of switch is going to be permanently live, so with a multimeter set at AC 230v or over, connect the negative test lead to neutral or earth because the neutral and earth meet up at star point and connect the other test lead (positive) to the switched pole side of the switch and depending which position the rocker is in the meter will show a 230 volt reading, all well and good for household wiring.

Question: How do I go about testing the actuator switch on the car  Question
Correct me if I’m wrong:

Car in neutral.
Ignition switched on.
Engine running.
Switch on dash not pressed in so car is in 2WD.
Meter set to over 12v DC negative lead of the multimeter grounded.
Both plug and sockets disconnected from each other.

Using the positive meter lead touch each pin in each socket to see which one gives a voltage reading.
(I’m not sure if it should be 12 volts or a lot lower)  Question
Repeat the test with 4wd drive switch pressed in, as I said I'm not sure if what Iv'e said is correct but I obviously need to make sure as there's no point in moving onto something else if I'm doing it all wrong.

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/16/Plug--Socket.md.jpg

I’ve been having a look on youtube for testing the Trooper actuator switches but haven’t found anything as yet.

Apologies for you having to hold my hand through all of this, but with your help I may just be able to fix the problem.

My thanks again for your help

Clive
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scj103
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 21:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

So ignore the two connectors that you have just put clips on. Those switch the vacuum solenoids.

The switch you are looking for is the only other electrical device on the front axle, two wires going to it. Remove the connector and undo and release the switch. It should have a ball bearing on the end. Use a multimeter on diode test (bleep) to test that the switch is capable of being both open and closed circuit, ie the two pins can be connected to together and disconnected when in the two positions.
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'98S reg Irish Trooper 3.0DT Citation (LWB 7seat)
65 plate Octavia Scout
'83 A reg 2CV...
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Clive
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Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 17:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi scj103

I’ve undone the connector and unscrewed the switch out of the front actuator and spotted a broken wire.
It had broken flush with the top surface of the switch, sods law, anyway I managed to dig the resin out and then did a continuity test across the two posts, the result was the multimeter bleeped until I pressed the ball bearing in against its spring pressure and there was no bleep from the meter so the switch appears to be working ok.
I’m keeping my figures crossed that the broken wire was the cause of my problem.

I’ve re-soldered both wires onto the posts and refitted the plastic collar and filled it with JB Weld, I’m leaving it overnight to set.

Once I’ve refitted it I’ll let you know if it all turns out to be a success, I’ll also post a few pictures of the switch with the resin dug out, it may be helpful to anyone else trying working on it, a picture is always better than words.

Thanks for now

Clive
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Clive
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 17:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Clive"]Hi scj103

I’ve undone the connector and unscrewed the switch out of the front actuator and spotted a broken wire.
It had broken flush with the top surface of the switch, sods law, anyway I managed to dig the resin out and then did a continuity test across the two posts, the result was the multimeter bleeped until I pressed the ball bearing in against its spring pressure and there was no bleep from the meter so the switch appears to be working ok.
I’m keeping my figures crossed that the broken wire was the cause of my problem.

I’ve re-soldered both wires onto the posts and refitted the plastic collar and filled it with JB Weld, I’m leaving it overnight to set.

Once I’ve refitted it I’ll let you know if it all turns out to be a success, I’ll also post a few pictures of the switch with the resin dug out, it may be helpful to anyone else trying working on it, a picture is always better than words.

Thanks for now

Clive[/quote]
Did I say figures, it should be fingers  Embarassed
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scj103
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 17:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would do it...I await with interest...
Keep those figures crossed Very Happy
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'98S reg Irish Trooper 3.0DT Citation (LWB 7seat)
65 plate Octavia Scout
'83 A reg 2CV...
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Clive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 21:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Scj103

Hurray! at long last it works, when the button on the dash is pressed in the 4WD light flashes momentarily then remains permanently on.
I checked both front wheels while they were off the deck and sure enough one turned in one direction and the other in the opposite.
Put back into 2WD both wheels turned independently and the light was out on the dash.

I have to say at first glance the wires on the actuator switch looked as though they were connected it wasn’t until I touched them I realised one of them had broken.

I tried it out on the road and have admit I was expecting a slight kick as 4WD was engaged but I didn’t feel anything unless it engages that smoothly, its been so long since I last used 4WD I can’t remember how it feels on engagement, but if it works when jacked up it must be right.

I’ve included a few pictures of the switch for anyone else who may have the same issue, I think the part number for it is 97101956, on the few sites I did look on I kept seeing the part is no longer available having said that I did not try the main agents.

I used J-B Weld to refill the collar were the terminals are, having watched a few youtube videos just to make it doesn’t conduct and short the terminals out.


Thanks again fellas for all your help in particular  scj103  

Clive  Very Happy

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/18/Actuator-1x.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/18/P1250975.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/18/P1250976.md.jpg

https://www.freephotoupload.com/images/2018/10/18/Actuator-4.md.jpg

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scj103
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 22:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are very welcome. Glad that we were able to help.

With shift on the fly I do not expect to feel coming in and out of 4wd at all.
Given that you shouldn’t be using it on hard surfaces, you wouldn’t notice anyway, but done in a straight line it still wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
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65 plate Octavia Scout
'83 A reg 2CV...
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