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YES, IT'S THAT ***** AUTO SHIFTING THANG AGAIN!

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IanP
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 23:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also like to thank MartQ for pointing out what the TPS actually did, its improved the old bus no end. Maybe this topic should be at the top of the gearbox section as it appears to be the only major reccuring problem on the older troopers. And relatively easy/cheap to fix  Shocked  Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 23:21    Post subject: Google Ads keep this community free to join!


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Hard1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 23:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree,  Mart's solution came out of nowhere and I already suggested this might be a "sticky" on account of the number of times this issue arises but,  I  don't think it's definitive quite yet. I would like to try my new setings on the TPS for a week or so to see if there's any change. Mart feels that it shouldn't really work in the position I have now set it at, and I'm quite keen to see how it goes before being definitive.

But I would also echo IanP's thanks being owed to MartQ in pointing us to the TPS as I'd almost given up thinking I could change this M*****F*****! Wink
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MartQ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 0:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me again,

Hard1, as I said in my earlier post, I had been a bit of a spanner and got my cw and acw mixed up, so of yours is fully acw then it may be OK.  The factory settings for these is 0.3 to 0.5V at idle, but I suppose if you think about it, the cars are set up for Japan which is, generally speaking, more mountainous than the UK and they may need earlier downshifts.  Who knows?  Perhaps they plucked the figure out of thin air as most Jap cars spend their time in the city and wouldn't get the chance to get into top gear anyway so overdrive is just a fashion accessory?!?

Let me know how you get on anyway over the next couple of weeks as I would like to find a solution for this.

Hasn't solved my problems though, overdrive still intermittant.  I will try the filter cleaning thing next.
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Hard1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 19:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi y'all, coming back at you re: Over Sensitive Auto Bighorn Kickdown Issue or, OSABKI for short... Very Happy

Early model MK2 Bighorn 3.1 TD Auto. I say early, as later ones had all sorts of other sensors and stuff, but this thread is about '92 thru probably '94/'95 models.

Right. I left it with the TPS being twisted fully CCW (Counter Clockwise) I know some peeps say ACW (Anti Clockwise) but I'm sticking with CCW just so you know. To recap, I reported that by doing this, it had changed the shifting characteristics beyond all recognition, and that no longer did it kickdown as soon as my foot brushed the throttle pedal.

I took it for a longish (150 mile) thrash today and most of it was on a motorway, the M27, which has quite a few long inclines and is just the ticket to test what's happening.

MartQ was quite right when he said that in this position there shouldn't be a kickdown at all. There was, just but only if you really stood on the throttle. Also, and this is the interesting bit, with the TPS in this position, it affected the upshifts quite considerably as well. It didn't hang on to any gear for long and was in O/D top almost as soon as  I hit 36 mph. If I wanted to hang on to a gear longer, I really had to lean on the throttle. I wasn't happy with this as this would certainly not be ideal for towing.

Remembering that I went from full CW which was the original position, to fully CCW, I then slackened off the locking screws and moved in in a CW direction, oh, about 1/8" inch (let's say the whole range is 3/8ths" or 1/2" at the most)So it's now roughly in the same position as described earlier by MartQ!

The result was very satisfying. I reckon that this is now in an ideal position. I have put some kickdown capability back into it and it's hanging on the the gears longer with smooth up and down shifts.

It's pretty clear that this Sensor is designed to be altered to customize the shifting characteristics although why they would want to escapes me. I will drive it around like this for a couple of weeks and report back to the forum.

In the meantime, if there's anyone out there being driven mad by the constant up and down shifting nonsense, find the TPS as per the photo in the thread and move it as we have discussed and you should (fingers crossed) have solved your issue. Please report back to this thread with your findings though, as we would like to ensure that the info we pass on is technically sound.

Of course, if we are talking rubbish about this TPS solution, please tell us that too! But you'll have to explain why things got a lot better when we moved it!

Thanks all, really happy with the Bighorn now!  Very Happy

What I need now is more power! Twisted Evil
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moglite
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 22:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard1 wrote:
Of course, if we are talking rubbish about this TPS solution, please tell us that too! But you'll have to explain why things got a lot better when we moved it!

Thanks all, really happy with the Bighorn now!  Very Happy

What I need now is more power! Twisted Evil


Nice work Mr Hard1.

I've got a '92 that loves to rev, so I'm gonna give your suggestions a go.
FWIW - I'm just up the road M3 - J12, I was down in Minstead yesterday.

I've got a mate in Basingstoke that knows how to tweak the pumps, so I'll be bribing him with Hob-nobs, now I've got the 'Horn serviced and the belts changed etc.

Andy
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moglite
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 18:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I found the sensor pretty much fully clock-wise on mine.
I moved it about 1/2 travel anti-clock-wise.

Yeah I can feel the difference instantly, the change into 2nd comes on much quicker, which is really nice around town  Razz

I reckon it will do wonders for the MPG - mine is pretty bad currently.

One thing I did notice that nobody else has mentioned, I now get a flashing O/D light when I have O/D engaged, but I'm in a lower gear. Like its telling me to press the O/D button. I've never noticed that before in the 3-4months I've had the car.
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MartQ
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Moglite,

Never had the O/D light flash, but if the TPS is set too far clockwise, the check trans light will flash because the voltage fed back to the ECU is too high.  This will register a fault code of 21 on the ECU when you go into diagnostics mode.  Try moving it further anti-clockwise and see if it stops.

Regards,

MartQ
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Hard1
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 15:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

moglite wrote:
Well I found the sensor pretty much fully clock-wise on mine.
I moved it about 1/2 travel anti-clock-wise.

Yeah I can feel the difference instantly, the change into 2nd comes on much quicker, which is really nice around town  Razz

I reckon it will do wonders for the MPG - mine is pretty bad currently.

One thing I did notice that nobody else has mentioned, I now get a flashing O/D light when I have O/D engaged, but I'm in a lower gear. Like its telling me to press the O/D button. I've never noticed that before in the 3-4months I've had the car.


Funny you should mention that; my O/D light flashes also but when it's at standstill in P with the O/D button engaged (button in OUT position) if you disengage the O/D in this situation (button pushed IN) the light stops flashing. Apart from that (which I never noticed before therefore I am assuming it's because of the alteration to the TPS) it works as it should. Like Mart says, start fiddling with the position of the TPS until you reach an equitable compromise. After all, because it's so accessible and it has a designed in range of movement, it appears to be designed that way!

Just to recap, mine was twisted full CCW and then backed off about 1/8th" so it's past 1/2 way.

Keep us informed of the results. I am very happy with mine now, but it's early days, I will report back in a week or so on this thread just to keep the relevant info in one place.
Amazing what an extra 1/8th" inch will do though!  Wink
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MartQ
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 15:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

After exhausting myself trawling t'internet for info on the auto 'box, have found this:

http://caunter.ca/volvo960/ce14807.pdf

I know it's for a volvo and connectors, wiring and control module, shift speeds and things are different, but bits of it are useful.
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Hard1
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 16:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's funny Mart  Laughing

I've had that very manual on my computer for over 3 years. I'm told it's essentially the same box as we use in the Bighorn. It's been used by quite a few other manufacturers too.

Not a lot seems to be relevant though although it is contemporary to our vehicles (1994) but as you say, there seem to be some similarities. There's also a lot more sensors!  Shocked

Am I also right in thinking that this box is also a 4 speed? In which case, it might be more useful for petrol owing UK Troopers as their boxes I believe are 4 speed autos. Whatever. Rolling Eyes

I expect Grandad might be able to tell by looking at the manual what bits we could learn from ..... Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 16:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I can gather, the basic box is the same as ours although on the troop, 4th is classed as overdrive.

The petrol troops use the 4L30E autobox which is a GM box made in France.  There's loads of info on the web about this one, but little or none about the Aisin 'box.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:03    Post subject: Bighorn Downshifting Reply with quote

1.  If the car performs satisfactorily with the TPS disconnected (apart from loss of kickdown) then one solution might be to put a 3 pole switch between the 3 pin plug and the ECU (wherever and whatever that is!). Positioned close to the driver it can be operated  and used a bit like a Summer/Winter or Sport Mode option as fitted to some other cars - best while stationary at first - if towing or in really hilly country.  Just a thought.

2.  Back to the actual TPS.  If Isuzu wont sell one separately then why cant we try something  else.  It sounds as if it is a regular potentiometer with its shaft pushed into the throttle position mechanism.  Truth is I havn't yet lifted my bonnet to find it (later today if weather permits). If it is a potentiometer in extremis it should be possible to put some alternative together. Has anyone taken one off to have a look?

Mike
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mikewalker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 22:32    Post subject: Auto thang again. Reply with quote

I tried to send this earlied today but it has got lost in the ether!

1.  If Isuzu won't sell the TPS sensor without an expensive throttle valve then perhaps we can improvise. I don't really know what the TPS is but if it is a potentiometer then it is perhaps possible to replace it with a conventional/standard pot.  It will be driven by the throttle valve and in all probability just pushes into a socket. Has anyone taken one out?  All we need is its ohmic value measured between the two outer terminals and its method of fixing.  It might be worth a try.

2.  If the TPS sensor only influences the kickdown and the car will function without it then as an alternative to total permanent disconnection perhas we can insert a 3 pole switch so we can connect/remove from the drivers position depending on use- hills or towing - a bit like summer/winter or sports auto boxes on some other cars.Just a thought.
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Hard1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 22:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike, interesting ideas. The TPS does seem to act as a regular (albeit short travel) potentiometer so yes in theory you could make something up to send the right signals. Disconnecting same though, doesn't just eliminate kickdown, it changes the upshift characteristics too.When I twisted my TPS to the extremeCCW position, it almost eliminated kickdown altogether but the box had a tendency upshift too quickly and get into top early, which, without much kickdown capability is a pain running bare let alone towing.

I would therefore only recommend total disconnection in extreme situations, like the TPS has gone completely tits.

It's now been 2 weeks since I "modded" the TPS position as previously described and am still very happy with the way it is performing. The ONLY difference in operation is that if you are driving along in O/D top and then stop leaving the OD switched in, the O/D light flashes until you move off again (which it didn't do before). MartQ reckons this is because the correct voltage is not being seen by the box gubbins if you change the position of the TPS from stock which sounds about right. There seems to be no downside to this mod at all thus far. The truck shifts up and down smoothly, kickdown works properly and so it was probably the best value, quickest and cheapest mod ever done with major results.

There seems to be no issues with fuel consumption which, if anything, is slightly better as not so many shifts!

This is a complex box and what you are getting is at least 5 shifts from standstill into O/D top. Two of the "shifts" are torque converter locking in top (3) and then O/D top. These TC "shifts" drop the revs 250 rpm on the upshift. Then there is the O/D shift which drop the revs 750 rpm on the upshift. Basically, this box appears to be "busy" all the time because of all this torque converter/O/D action. So, if you nail it in O/D top to kickdown, it firstly drops the TC, then the O/D, then (you're maybe in converter locked top (3) which then drops that and then (depending on your kickdown demand) drops from 3rd to second! No wonder these things appear sensitive!

All I've done by moving the TPS in line with other members comments on this thread, is litereally to slow down this action by making the kickdown less sensitive.

Sorry for the long post but this issue has been a feature of members' gripes for many years now, and I hope there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Anybody wanting to try this, I recommend turning the TPS fully CCW and then backing it off CW in small increments until you like the results. This solution is still in the experimental stage, so everyone's experience of this mod may be different. Please proceeed with caution.

Cheers,  Very Happy
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mutlley
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

my first post on this forum was how to change oil in an autobox. the info i got back was just superb! and all though i havent done it yet, i now feel confident when i do.(warm day job). and like all of you my auto has on more than one ocasion given me, and the wife a bloody heartattack when it suddenly decides to change gear. now, after reading this post i feel like running round the house shouting eureka!  now i cant wait to do the adjustment, like you hard1, this spoilt what is a top motor. last year we went from dunkirk to vannes on the east coast of france towing a twin axle c/van, didnt think france had so many big hills, the changing box drove me mad, even on the striaght and flat passing trucks, the old trooper couldnt help screaming its tits off. i thought it must be ready for an g/b oil change. i now know different. many thanks to you all.

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