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Air con gas


 
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bone1748
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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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Location: inverness

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:23    Post subject: Air con gas Reply with quote

1996 3.1 Bighorn .
Does anyone know which gas will have been used in the aircon system on this vehicle.?
When did they stop using the R12.
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Gribble
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would the old gas not be replaced completely with new stuff anyway ?
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Grandad
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Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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Location: NORFOLK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

96 bighorn will have r134a  should have a green label on the compressor also the connections are different from r12 gas
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bone1748
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:17    Post subject: air con Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies .  Thankfully it is not the R12 gas . The compressor has the green label . I believe it would have been an expensive pain is the A--- to convert .
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d12
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mines a 96 bighorn and in use the new r134 gas cost me €40 to top it up or do what ever he did to make it work 😀
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Rhanagar
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Preston, Lancs.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 13:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

R134a was meant to be direct drop in to R12 systems. It works but you have to change the filter/dryer unit, totally vacuum out the system and use a different compressor oil that works with the new gas.

Production of new R12 was banned by the EU and parts of Asia (including Japan) by 1st January 1996. All new vehicles had to fitted with R134a. Reason being the greenhouse effect R12 has on the atmosphere. 1 kg of R12 released into the atmosphere is the equivalent of 8500 Kgs of CO2 (Carbon Dioxide). R134a on the other hand is a lot less at 1300 Kgs. Still horrendous, but no where near as bad. R134a ha another benefit over R12. This being R12 has Chlorine in it. UV rays break the R12 down releasing the Chlorine atom. This atom is then plays merry hell with the Ozone layer preventing the natural production of O2 (Oxygen). R134a doesn't have any Chlorine in, so when it breaks down it doesn't have this effect.

Funnily America has only just realised the ful effect of R12 and is now considering a different gas R1234yf, though the refrigeration industry is up in arms over its safety and other potential replacements.
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1990 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.I 2.8TD Manual Lotus Edition
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto Lotus Edition

Deceased
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto LS

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bone1748
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 14:30    Post subject: air con gas Reply with quote

Spot on Neal . Thanks.
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nbatty3
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 19:10    Post subject: r12 Reply with quote

wow r12 back in the day!!!

yep r134a is a replacement but via retro fit! (pain in the ass!!!)

you dont need to faff around changing oil and filter etc and good a/c chap can help look for r49  also called r413a

this gas is a 'drop in!'

you need to fully replace the gas for new as they wont mix too well

full recharge not just top up!
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bone1748
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 20:40    Post subject: air con gas Reply with quote

r413a sounds like the business to me . Thanks . Going in on Tuesday . Will enquire
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gt-nick
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 20:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone knows there gasses,  Rolling Eyes  Wink

I mainly see 407c and 410a units

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Rhanagar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 13:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

I work for an industrial refrigeration company that also does transport (Tesco, sainsbury's etc home delivery) units. F-Gas qualified. Not an expert in refrigeration but know my way around. I mainly do the mechanical design work and leave the technical gibberish to others Very Happy
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1990 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.I 2.8TD Manual Lotus Edition
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto Lotus Edition

Deceased
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto LS

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Grandad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 14:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

taken from a Jaguar forum may be of interest

I've read with interest the many posts under the heading "AIR CON" on the bulletin board. Quite an interesting subject I'm sure you will agree! I'm also glad to learn that most people choose to keep their air conditioning systems operational. The subject can be somewhat of a mine field. But I hope I can dispell a few myths regarding this subject starting with alternative refrigerants.

As a time served qualified air conditioning engineer with 20 year experience, please allow to to clarify a few facts regarding the various refrigerants and their properties and compatabilities. I hope this information will help you to decide which one is best for you.

R12 - Most Jaguars manufactured prior to 1992 had refrigerant R12 air conditioning systems as standard. (1992 was the recognised industry change-over year from refrigerant R12 to refrigerant R134a). R12 is a very efficient refrigerant, it contains larger molecules than R134a. R12 is made up of C.F.C's, (Chlorflorcarbons) which are extremely destructive to the Ozone Layer. That's why the manufacture of R12 was banned. At the time of it's demise, the only viable refrigerant available for automotive air conditioning applications was R134a.
As far as I am aware, it is not illegal to use R12 (I have a few Kilograms left in a cylinder) but releasing it into the atmosphere and manufacturing it certainly is. R12 is an inert vapour at atmospheric pressure. It is odorless and colourless. It is heavier than air and in very large concentrations will deplete oxygen and cause suffocation. Under pressure, it condenses into a liquid. Releasing R12 in liquid form can cause severe freeze burn to your skin. If R12 is burnt, phosgene is released which is better known as mustard gas.

R134a - is nowadays, the most commonly used refrigerant in automotive air conditioning systems for new vehicles. It is far less efficient than R12. It is not compatable with systems originally designed to operate with R12 unless an extensive lubrication modification is carried out on the system first. The use of R134a necessitates the use of synthetic (polyolester or P.O.E) compressor lubricant oil. R12 systems contain standard mineral lubricalting oil. Chemicals in R134a react with mineral oil and polymise it (tern it into a glue like substance). Therefore, you cannot add R134a to an R12 system without expensive retrofit modification.
R134a is an H.F.C (Hydroflurocarbon) refrigerant. It does not deplete the ozone layer but it does have properties that contribue to global warming (Greenhouse effect) similar to Carbon Dioxide. It is illegal to knowingly release R134a into the atmosphere. R134a is an inert vapour at atmospheric pressure. It is odorless and colourless. It is heavier than air and in very large concentrations will deplete oxygen and cause suffocation. Under pressure, it condenses into a liquid. Releasing R134a in liquid form can cause severe freeze burn to your skin.

R413a (not to be confused with R134a) also known as R49 - A company called Isceon developed R413a (Isceon 49) several years ago as a direct "drop in" replacement for R12. It is a far more efficient refrigerant than R134a which means your air conditioning system will cool and dehumidify the air more efficiently with R413a than it will with R134a. R413a It is a long term direct replacement for R12. It's chemical composition is known as an Azeotropic blend and it has a larger molecular structure than R134a. It has an ozone depleting property of Zero, therefore, it does not damage the ozone layer. It has similar global warming properties to R134a. It is odorless and colourless. It is heavier than air and in very large concentrations will deplete oxygen and cause suffocation. Under pressure, it condenses into a liquid. Releasing R413a in liquid form can cause severe freeze burn to your skin.
The best feature regarding the use of R413a is that absolutely no modifications at all are required to use it in either a system designed to operate with R12 or R134a. R413a is compatable with all compressor lubricating oils including mineral, P.O.E and alchobenzene lubricants. Therefore, it can be added to any automotive air conditioning system after nothing more than a system pressure leak check and a thorough evacuation. No other parts, materials or lubricants are required.
Refrigerant R413a (R49) is slightly more expensive than refrigerant R134a. But R413a can be put straight into any automotive air conditioning system (R12 or R134a) without modification. It is far less labour intensive to use. It is therefore, much cheaper to convert your R12 system to operate on R413a than it is to convert it to use R134a.

From my proffessional experience, R413a (R49) is a far better alternative to R134a. Both my Jaguar air conditioning systems have run on it for the past five years or so and I've been extremely happy with the results. Why pay out many hundreds of pounds to convert your R12 system to a R134a system when you can add R413a to your system without modification far more cheaply. Respect due to anyone who has already converted to R134a, but is there really any point when there's a direct "drop in" replacement for R12 which is more efficient anyway?

I recently spoke to a gentleman who paid a whopping £700 + VAT to convert his BMW 7 Series to R134a from R12. He could of had it charged with R413a for no more than £100.00 + VAT. I know which price I'd sooner pay!

Food for thought? Comments and experienses are welcome of course!
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Rhanagar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 16:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting reading Grandad.

Problem is with R413a is its classified as a Transitional Alternative. This means that it is only a temporary replacement until an industry standard is decieded upon. That standard was R134a. Now some of the transitional alternatives are around for a long while yet (longer than the average lifespan of a car) but these decisions are based on all forms of refrigeration. Funnily R134a is also under review it seems and they are looking at better gasses to replace it (the fabled R1234yf for example). Another thing to take into account is there are only a very very few number of companies that actually produce refrigerants, and then they do it under license. I can only think of one company (on hand) that actually develop refrigerant gasses, and this company is the one who is allowed to research it and then sell the formula (refrigerants are a blend of chemicals) for production. You can imagine the monopoly this generates, however they are being pushed to make more enviromentally friendly gasses by worldwide governments (those who have signed the Montreal Treaty and Kyoto Protocol).

That article also confirms my statement that just swapping from R12 to R134a is not as simple as people make it sound. For a proper and reliable system the entire system has to be purged of both gas and oil. This is done by effectively dumping what gas you can into a bottle and then putting the entire system under vacuum for a period. By putting the system under vacuum it effectively vaporises and gas, oil, or moisture in the system, and then as its a gas it can be sucked out. Once you have done that you will need to change the filter/drier as this will be impregnated with the old oil which reacts with the new R134a. Once this is done the system can then be charged with the correct oil and gas.
_________________
1990 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.I 2.8TD Manual Lotus Edition
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto Lotus Edition

Deceased
1994 Isuzu Bighorn LWB Mk.II 3.1TD Auto LS

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Desertstorm
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Joined: 13 Aug 2020
Posts: 7
Location: Essex

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:24    Post subject: Regasing 1990 Isuzu Trooper DLX 2.8 diesel aircon Reply with quote

Thanks guys for your insite into this subject,can anyone recommend a location in or near Essex that can supply a retrofit service with a simple gas change to fix my vehicle?.
Many thanks.
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